Do you agree with the statement that Economical growth cannot continue if nations are to tackle clim

Created by: Martha Jays :: 1 month ago

Comments Login to leave comment

Vote: +7

"Do you agree with Andrew Simms´statement that says: "There is no global, environmental central bank to bail us out if we become ecologically bankrupt." ? Is it a question of economical growth vs Climate Change safety?"

By: Martha Jays :: 1 month ago

Vote: +12

"Martha,

I could not agree more. Let's make an effort to overcome our cultural and human bias and realize the most precious and threatened resource in the known universe is LIFE. Life should be the focus and the highest priority in all human conversations and debates. It is more valuable than any profit, political, cultural or any other kind of human goal or achievement. If I was an alien and came to this planet, I would have a hard time understanding how these humans can call themselves rational by showing reluctance to taking environmental action arguing it will risk their economies or way of life. I'd be particularly puzzled by the expression 'way of life'. What rational mind can seriously talk about a way of life when the very existence of life is threatened by such mind? The question of economical growth versus climate change safety does NOT make any logical or rational sense. It is the product of our emotional attachment to material comfort which blinds our sense of reality and logic. There have enough studies and warnings that show how intimately linked the economy and the health of the planet are. My favorite one is the Stern Review Report on the Economics of Climate Change by former Chief Economist and Senior Vice-President of the World Bank, Nicholas Stern. He showed the cost of inaction against Global warming would far outweigh the investment of taking action, but as Copenhagen showed this year, the governments of the world are still dragging their feet. They still do not see the business case...The roadblock to transitioning into the sustainable world economy is not technical, financial or for lack of any other resources. The roadblock is ideological and ultimately psycho-emotional. It is a mental conditional where greed, fear and attachment blind our perception of reality."

By: Ruben :: 1 month ago

Vote: +9

"Wow, Ruben!!! Kudos! I couldn't have said it better myself. We have become so desensitized by everything in our world that not even the threat of complete and utter devastation can make the world leaders step up to the plate. We are so used to having everything and anything we want without thinking of the cost or the bigger picture. It is time that we dug ourselves in and not let go until this problem is addressed in the right way. The only way I see that we are going to get anything done is to keep chopping down the barriers until we get a consensus and make the right decisions and take action to quell the problem of global warming."

By: candeeb :: 1 month ago

Vote: +6

"Ít´s nice to find a place where one can have an intelligent cyber conversation. I agree with you 3, greed has become so mainstream that it is the norm these days. At least, a few people like us fight and move forward."

By: greta :: 1 month ago

Vote: +7

"It all comes down to the question, what is money anyway?

The way I see, it each unit of currency represents a bit of our planets resources packaged up wrapped in a nice convenient pocket sized shell and passed around. Limited resources oil, water,trees minerals, holes in the ground to put rubbish in, atmospheric capacity to absorb pollution... means limited money.

Once the rate in base resource growth is exceeded by the rate of demand placed by a growing increasingly large and expectant population, the only way to create more economic growth is by creating more money by packaging up future years expected base resources.

The easiest way to do this is to lend people money on the basis of their expected capacity to repay. Of course, if in future years the expected basic resources dont appear out of the ground at the expected rate, but there is lots of 'money' everything gets more expensive as there is less to go round and you cannot eat 'money'.

Look at the oil price in 2008. The knock on effect is that food, fuel and lots of other things became expensive, the the people lent the money cannot then afford to pay it back because they are too busy working out where their next meal is comming from.

Unfortunately between the time the loans were made and the subsequent increase in the cost of everything, the loans have be sold on, splt up, used by big banks for security against bigger loans etc etc.

The magic pretend money created on the basis of non-existent oil, minerals, water, holes in the ground ect them magically dissapears leaving the world economy riddled with holes like swiss cheese."

By: jerome :: 1 month ago

Vote: +8

"Economy is utterly utterly dependent on environment. The problem is we are very good at prettending it isn't. To be honest though i think we should do exactly what we did in 2005,6,7 again. Lend lend lend to everyone, create more and more imaginary ficticious economic growth. Stick our fingers in our ears and our heads in the sand. Then in 2-3 years time when the oil price hits $300 and it all comes crashing down again maybe we will be forced into redesigning society in a more ecologically just and sustainable way. If global capitalism cannot learn its lesson from the serious cardiac arrest it has just had, then it would be better for humanity in the long run if it carried on smoking, drinking, eating kebabs and got an organ donor card."

By: jerome :: 1 month ago

Vote: +7

"Jerome,
I praise your fearless analysis denouncing the ugly truth about our universal drug that money has unfortunately become. The level disconnection we humans have reached from our life sustaining environment, originated in the Cartesian philosophy of separating mind from matter and conceiving the universe as a machine we can predict and control is at the very the root of the problem. Fortunately it also holds the key to the solution. Descartes and Newton developed a new sterile but nonetheless attractive conception of reality where the universe was a predictable and therefore controllable machine. This powerful view gave humans a great sense of control and comfort as science and the industrial revolution brought unprecedented material progress and standards of living. The noble effort of finding objective truth and eradicate ignorance, injustice and superstition unfortunately made science strip its new view of reality from human feelings, values, sensitivities and even morality. It created a fragmented reality conceived as a collection of separated objects interacting in linear deterministic ways. Reductionism or breaking down things, beings and phenomena into their constituent parts to understand their nature and behavior brought enough so much material success that it has become hard to question as a legitimate way of explaining reality. In the last hundred years the foundations of classical mechanics unquestioned for over 300 years were shattered by scientific discoveries by modern physics. Quantum mechanics, electromagnetic theory and general relativity showed the universe as a endless network of relationships. Even the concept of objectivity stopped making sense as the observer influenced and became part of the scientific phenomena observed. Although I agree with the need to denounce the illusion of unlimited economic growth and resources on which our current economic system is based on, I need to consider that the symptoms of the actual disease..."

By: Ruben :: 1 month ago

Vote: +6

"...the disease is our erroneous view of reality based still in the Cartesian universe. Until we can learn in our minds but also at the emotional level that we are not separated from nature but just a manifestation of it, we will be able to achieve a safe and truly sustainable future. We need to realize the world is a huge ecosystem where rather than separated objects acting like clocks or billiard balls we have systems within systems within systems all intimately through which matter and energy flow. What we call each entity in the universe, thing, being or phenomenon is ultimately an abstraction that separates a part from the bigger whole in order to make sense of it with our humble minds. As philosophical and apparently impractical this assertion may seem we realize it is imperative to understand for it is only when we embrace the infinite connection and interdependence in nature and the world when we will understand that our actions on nature and the planet are ultimately actions on ourselves as we are nature since we are part of the planetary ecosystem or biosphere. Our environmental which distills to a mental and emotional problem was originated by a cultural problem, an oversimplified but powerful conception of reality. That in theory should fix the problem. Unfortunately waking society or at least the Powers that Be to the actual eco-systemic nature of reality is going to take longer than we have to mitigate our global crisis. I do believe in the capacity of society realizing this truth. However we cannot wait until that shift in consciousness happens. We need quicker solutions. I fear like you that we are not going to listen to the scientific evidence that urges us to embrace the ecosystemic view of reality and calls for immediate radical action changing our unsustainable existence in the biosphere, devouring resources and degrading our life sustaining systems (from forests to polar ice cups). Someone however is going to awaken us from our toxic..."

By: Ruben :: 1 month ago

Vote: +12

"...hallucination. And that someone is the very same one we are trying to avoid, the global crisis and the multiple disruptions and catastrophes that is bound to bring. Only when we become overwhelmed by the effects of resource scarcity, global climate change and environmental and social order degradation will we question our "way of life" which some of us have so worshiped and imposed including the former US administration. Given this emerging scenario I have decided to develop life-saver type solutions that will help the planet survive the upcoming crises while teaching that the permanent and final solution is the transformation of our human infrastructure into an ecosystem that can ultimately and seamlessly be integrated in Nature."

By: Ruben :: 1 month ago

Vote: +10

"Great stuff Ruben. I see we share many similar views here. Cartesian philosophy, Descartes and Newton are all reasons why i have always prefered biology to phsyics, I am far more comfortable with complexity.

It does not take too much to turn mechanical and predictable in to chaos, just add a little shake of evolution!

I rather like the concept that life is the boiling complexity of the universe expanding inwards on itself. While it is easy to imagine a universe inflating like a balloon, or even unevenly like a cluster of bubbles. The inward folding of the universe following basic physical rules of repulsion, attraction and linear time has created at some levels immense unpredictable complexity. complexity such as 'What do i think of Lady Gaga's latest album?' I am not sure which branch of physics addresses this particular question or could propose any number of deterministic answers. Complexity itself however if viewed from far enough away shows easily predictable, repeating macro patterns.

Weather is complex and cannot be predicted from one week to the next, however climate is more predictable and can be linked to markers such as atmospheric methane and CO2 levels. Music, art and their appreciation are complex but often follow patterns if viewed at a macro social levels.

In terms of centering in the chaotic universe, i have always found a useful tool is to sit and think: If the universe (or the multiverse if you prefer) is infinite, any physical point i choose is the centre; i am at the centre of the multiverse. If time is infinite, any point i choose in time is the centre. I am at the centre of space and time, all that matters now is how i feel about it."

By: jerome :: 1 month ago

Vote: +10

"At the moment i feel deeply troubled that at a macro level my species is running headlong into extinction, while too many people are preoccupied by Lady Gaga's album or any number of other superficial distractions. But who knows what emergent properties will arrise from the artistic chaos of biology and society once under direct survival pressure. Bring on the challenge!"

By: jerome :: 1 month ago

Vote: +0

"Ruben, i am interested in your point

"the transformation of our human infrastructure into an ecosystem that can ultimately and seamlessly be integrated in Nature."

This sort of happens when we die, we get reintegrated with nature!

On a more serious note this depends how you define Nature doesnt it. An alien looking at earth would not make a distinction between temite hills and cooling towers. These are all natural. You are falling into your own philosphiocal schism between man and nature, whan there is no real distinction. Man and all mans acts are a part of nature, our own demise through war, nuclear accident, large hadron collider creating a black hole, climate change or any other end will be a natural process, like autumn, volcanoes, thunder storms etc. Even a meteorite impact could in some way be seen as a natural event, mans actions are even more natural than that, as we are an intrinsic part of the biosphere.

To ensure that we are seamlesly integrated with nature would require us to just keep on doing what we are doing, which is following our natural urge to reporduce and improve our comfort. Humans are already seamlessly integrated, in the same way in which an Ecoli infection is seamlessly integrated into the body, ie normally really useful in the gut, but potentially fatal if allowed to spread through the whole system.

Nature will unceremoniously and undiplomatically knock us back for taking more than is sustainable. I am not sure our species as it stands in the numbers we are heading for, will find it possible to live sustainably with the rest of the biosphere.

Until that point though I for one will carry on doing my best to reduce the distance there is to fall for my community by increasing the local use of renewables, promoting sustainable food sources, waste disposal, energy efficiency, closed cycle processes and environmental awreness.

Then all back to mine for a big end of the world party!"

By: jerome :: 1 month ago

Vote: +14

"Jerome,
I am glad we are both aware enough to understand the complexity of our world, our global crisis and human nature. I do however see how you may have misunderstood some of my points though just because of the restrictions our written media. Let me then clarify that I am not sure what you mean by your comment ?You are falling into your own philosphiocal schism between man and nature, whan there is no real distinction.? With all due respect I think you misread my message probably because of the metaphor I used. No problem, this happens in every conversation and it is a healthy thing to have people question one's ideas and expressions. Let me assure you I do agree with you that man's unsustainable behiavior is FULLY NATURAL or consistent with his nature, at least at certain stage in his development at the individual, social and species levels. What I wanted to convey is not the ?Natural? nature or quality of man's actions but the lack of RATIONALITY, LOGIC, COMMON SENSE and RESPONSIBILITY by neglecting what even less intellectual (may I use this term?) species abide by which is SELF PRESERVATION. This has nothing to do with being or not being natural.
Now on that completely different topic on the natural or artificial humans are, I will keep it short for lack of time and just add that I see man manifesting his own nature through culture and technology. I would never agree with the Luddite argument supported by Mormons and other religious sects blaming technological progress as the root cause of all evil. That is in my opinion ignorant and IRRATIONAL. Man is inherently creative. And that is something to be praised in my book. Now the question, the issue once again is not technology or power but what we ultimately do with them. I like you probably see if I take my universal lens or perspective, a wind turbine as natural as a tree. First of all it is made with stuff and energy from this planet and nowhere else such as metal from the Earth's crust and water someone"

By: Ruben :: 1 month ago

Vote: +14

"Jerome,

I forgot to add I have my highest respect and give you kudos for promoting and practicing all those environmental actions. I also try to do everything I can to reduce my own carbon and environmental footprint as that of my circle of influence from my friends and family to the American state of Michigan and beyond. The fact that I have not talked about these actions does not mean I think less of them. I have just being addressing another point in the wide and complex issue of sustainability which is the root cause of our unsustainable behavior and the likely future that is awaiting. That is all. I do however commend you on your knowledge of sustainable living and I look forward to learning from you and your people what I can. It's an honor to engage with individuals like you in such a critically important and fascinating conversation."

By: Ruben :: 1 month ago

Vote: +19

"I loved this quote from the introduction to the new economic forum report: Growth Isn't Possible: Why rich nations need a new economic direction

'Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist.'
Kenneth E. Boulding
Economist and co-founder of General Systems Theory

To gte the full report in PDF form here is the link-http://www.neweconomics.org/sites/neweconomics.org/files/Growth_Isnt_Possible.pdf - it really is worth the time to read"

By: Natural Choices :: 30 days ago

Vote: +0

"@Natural choices, thanks for the link, found the pdf really really worth reading. One quote that stood out for me was the one from Lord Turner, CEO of the FSA "If you spend your time thinking that the most important objective of public policy is to get growth up from 1.9 per cent to 2 per cent and even better 2.1 per cent we're pursuing a sort of false god there. We're pursuing it first of all because if we accept that, we will do things to the climate that will be harmful, but also because all the evidence shows that beyond the sort of standard of living which Britain has now achieved, extra growth does not automatically translate into human welfare and happiness.""

By: sangeeta :: 23 days ago

Vote: +0

"I agree with Sangeeta. It's the assumptions that come linear thinking determinism so inherent to our again industrial paradigm that create the pie in the sky of unlimited growth and have put us the current colliding course with Nature and Reality. This is a document everyone should take the time to read. Natural Choices, thanks for this great reference."

By: Ruben :: 23 days ago

Vote: +0

"what do you think the next government will do? Of course they'll focus on the growth, that's what the economy is based on. Am I missing something?"

By: Anita Singh :: 1 day ago

Vote: +0

"Anita, there is growth and growth.
For example would love to see a growth in re-usable packaging, and reduction in throw away packaging. A growth in organic farming and a reduction in the size of the modern, chemical based farming.

I would also love to see a huge growth in the non- economic sector, community building, child caring, home grown vegetables.

A massive cut back in the financial services sector, and a huge growth in building public sector sustainable housing.

The list goes on but I am sure you get the point.

An economy can actually shrink in absolute GDP size as measured by economists, and bloom at the same time.

But yes, if you are talking about the UK the next government, who ever they are will prioritise corporate profits about personal, community and environmental well being- its what they do..."

By: Natural Choices :: 1 day ago

Vote: +0

"@Natural Choices, yes you're right and I was simply wrong. I guess what you are saying is that we can have growth but it needs to be growth in the right sectors. I watched Cameron Uncut on Dispactches and although i dont want to make this blog a political one, I have a feeling that what's to come will be more about the city fat cats, corporate profits and so on..."

By: Anita Singh :: 1 day ago

Vote: +0

"Anita,
Sadly I agree with you re Mr C, mind you if you look at the growth of the financial sector in UK under Labour, and in the US under the Republicans one gets a depressing feeling that the financial sector is one that is to fast moving for mere politicians to get a handle on, even if they wanted to.

The post crash policy lack of meaningful policy initiatives to prevent it happening again seem to confirm that apart from media led public outcries about bonus payments there is no desire across the main stream political spectrum to deal with the sector.

On a more positive note however there is a range of interesting ethical financial initiatives, from funding micro investment, to mainstream ethical investment funds, Islamic banking, renewable energy investment and of course the wonderful Tridos and Co-op Financial Services that show there is a heart in some bankers."

By: Natural Choices :: 1 day ago

Vote: +0

"One to many uses of the word policy in that second paragraph sorry, fingers freezing as we are under 50 cms of snow. Nobody told me about the winters when I moved down to France."

By: Natural Choices :: 1 day ago

Vote: +0

"Time for 'economic maturity' to replace 'economic growth'

I live in hope that the finacial crisis will turn out to be the acne and tantrums of our adolescent global economy comming of age!"

By: jerome :: 1 day ago

Vote: +2

"Jerome, its a nice image you have there- but having watched the not so contrite CEOs of Wall Street weasel their way out of admitting any culpability for the crash, I fear its more likely that its a bit like Easter- a few mock acts of atonement before tucking into the Chocolate eggs."

By: Natural Choices :: 1 day ago

Vote: +0

"I have to agree with Natural choices. just from what I read, i suspect that I am slightly older than most bloggers here. Let me tell you, I've seen it before. Greed is a universal sin and an eternal one. If you really think that the financial institutions have learned from their mistakes and they will be more responsible from now on, I suggest you stop dreaming. Money and making more and more money has been an incentive for generations and generations and it wont stop them to mess up again. they are doing it as I write anyway. Environmental concerns have been strategically and timely removed from people's minds, ...apart from a few of us anyway. Sorry to paint a grim picture but I believe it's a realistic one."

By: greta :: 1 day ago

Vote: +0

"Thanks Greta and Natural choices, trying not to stretch my analogy to far...but an adolescent doesn't decide to stop growing its just the natural biological limits to growth

My hope is that the natural environmental limits to growth will demand economy maturity.

What i suspect that will feel like is a sequence of quick succession of abortive growth crash cycles over the next 10 years as the global finacial system refuses to accept the laws of nature and physics and carries on business as usual. Eventually the markets will realise that the real problem is that there is just not enough stuff left to make into money and too many people to feed. You can only make food and fuel so expensive before people riot on the streets."

By: jerome :: 9 hours ago